Is it time to change our Championship?
I think it's time for a change of system.
Speaking just for myself, the method of the committee nominating specific races does not work.
- Very few are races that I want to run: some are too distant, some are too slow, some are just boring
- The list seems very arbitrary: why two 10 milers but only one 10K and one half-marathon? Why is the only marathon the Beachy Head? Why have races in there that are always full up well in advance? Why not more local races - eg Maidenhead rather than New Forest?
- the timing of many of the races is wrong for spring marathon runners (eg for many Wokingham is a training run, not a race)
- conversely others like the Bramley 20 are of no interest except as part of London training
Speaking more generally, the performances in the Championship races do not reflect the running talent we have in the club. Fastest at the O2O, almost 43 minutes, only 4 runners under 50mins. Fastest at the Cabbage Patch, almost 71 minutes. Etc.
I would like to propose an alternative where we allow everyone to submit their times for any race at a recognised distance (eg Marathon, Half, 10M, 10K, 5M, 5K), and each member's best time of the year counts in each points table. (In the final table, best half by a member during the year = 50, next = 49, etc). Maybe the championship is then for total points across all distances, or maybe as now it's the 4 best. The web-site makes it very easy to submit results and for the standings to be visible to everyone.
I think this would have the following advantages:
1. More "open" to members and therefore better for competition
2. It would give a better reflection of who our best runners really are
3. It would stay "alive" for the whole year
4. Members could race the races that suited them, rather than the present rather odd choice
5. If we wanted, we could recognise a true "Marathon Champion", "10K Champion", etc
What do other people think?
Championship
I think it should be races that are generally well supported by the club. This is after all a championship where you race other club members. There are trophies for best Wycat (sp?) etc.
Ahhhh!
Ah I see. We want a club championship competition that doesn't get won by our best runners. I get it now......
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Club Championship
I don't agree with being able to just submit your times for any race across the various distances, as this will close the whole competition down, leaving just the fastest two or three runners at the club in a position to compete for the championship.
I believe in the nomination system, although I like the idea of being able to vote on which races are nominated.
Why Change?
It's obviously not possible to argue with the statement "The races are there it's up to the individual whether or not they are going to do them if they want to try to win the championship." Or with "that's good for you bad for those who may be better but haven't turned up". Both clearly are true. Ditto the argument that all races are different.
However, I was looking at it more from the viewpoint that:
1. We are a running club with 208 active members
2. We have a club championship that, this year, has inspired exactly 13 of those active members to contest it (that's how many have run in 4 or more of the nominated races). That's 6%.
I was assuming the purpose of the championship was to involve our members and find/give recognition to our best runners. Hence my suggestion that it needs changing. Nothing here has changed my mind. However, if you are happy that we have a system that interests very few members and is awarded to the best male and female out of just 13 then you're right, there's absolutely no reason to change it.
Some Thoughts
Taking a long slow (calf recovery) run around Virginia Water Lake this lunchtime, I was giving this whole debate some thought.
Firstly the use of the forum is great - it's here precisely to allow this kind of debate to take place. The problem with a forum ultimately is that although it's a great place to see / swap opinions - often the conclusion can be a bit 'hazy'.
I thought this would be a good opportunity to introduce a tool (toy) that I hadn't yet turned on for the website - namely the ability to create polls to allow people to vote on ideas - this might help to get people involved which as John has identified, is key. This would allow a precise summary of views after the debate. Now obviously the votes could be used just to gather opinions to make recommendations to the comittee, or to actually make a 'binding' decision - I'm not going to get into that debate here - merely show what's possible. Similarly use of the pool would need to be limited to prevent 'poll fatigue' but I think one very pertinent use could be to register votes on which races should be included in a forthcoming championship year.
I've created a test page to show how this tool could be used to get people to vote on the ideas that Steve has raised. The current settings are that you need to be registered to vote and add comments, though anyone can look at the poll and how people have voted. All of this is changeable to suit requirements.
Have a look / play. Please note that this is just an example of how the tool can be used. The first two questions are actually 'real' in that they can be used to give your view on Steve's primary suggestions. The other questions aren't 'real' but just used to show the concept. Depending on what people think, the test page may be replaced with real questions regarding the 2008 Championship.
As usual, let me know what you think. Perhaps I should set up a poll so you can tell me..
Finally then, the link to the test polls.
Championship
The other question to ask, and perhaps your suggestion may help, is how to get people involved.
In general the races picked have been popular races in the past, lots are now full early including Yateley's which have been on the list over the years.
Very few ladies actually complete 4 events, adding more 10K's might help, but very few did the 5K Club run. Adding time trials to the list might help
In fact there is probably only a small core of runners who enter races over the year.
We were going to add age relate winners a couple of years ago, but we did not have enough people (one or two at each age range at the most).
Getting people involved might be over riding question to answer?
Championship
It's of my opinion that you race against who is there on the day and if you happen to be the best on the day for whatever reason then that's good for you bad for those who may be better but haven't turned up.
I think 8 races is quite a good level as it gives you the opportunity to get the four under your wing and then potentially a couple to improve your existing results.
The races are there it's up to the individual whether or not they are going to do them if they want to try to win the championship. Okay Bramley 20 may not be ideal in terms of time in relation to London but if we want as fuller range of distances as possible is there any better 20 milers?
Look On The Bright Side
At least the forums got used!
Change
Well I confess I'm not surprised by the reactions, which are pretty much as I expected
Another viewpoint
How about Club La Santa half marathon and Club La Santa 5k for club champiobship races, U_M? Only joking, of course.
I guess the club championship should be the main award for the best runners at the club, while the Wicat trophy allows older runners to have a better chance. But I do think the club championship races should still be selected from a limited number of nominated races, so that everyone has similar races to choose from. If it's an open choice, some people might have easier access to a race which will give them a distinct advantage. For example, I think that Gosport half marathon is actually easier than Wokingham, as I have done it in the past when I had transport to get there (now I don't have transport). Even if it is only 30 seconds faster, it could be an opportunity to get a few extra points in the championship. Then, what about weather conditions. I actually hate running in the cold and Wokingham is often cold and horrible when it's windy as well. At least if Wokingham is the nominated half marathon, it will be the same conditions for everyone.
Maybe there should be a bit more choice to give people a chance to do at least 4 championship races in a year. I have only done 1 this year, at Wokingham, when I was injured and hadn't run at all for 4 weeks before that, so I didn't score very well. If there was a choice of up to 3 races at different distances, then hopefully that should give everyone a chance to enter at least 1. If the best runners only enter 4 races, and maybe finish with just under 200 points and then some not so good runners enter other races and manage to get 200 points, I don't see how the better runners can complain, if they had an equal opportunity to run in all the races.
It may only be points from (the best) 4 races that count towards the championship, but if the better runners want to stop the not so good runners getting 50 points, then they should enter the other races as well. That's just my point of view.
Bramley gets my vote to remain as a championship race. There is no reason why it is only of interest to people doing London. I think the club championship has to include races of longer distances. Are the best club runners sprinters or marathon runners or somewhere in between? I think the best runners are those who are consistently good over lots of different distances.
Changes
Different courses give different times, so a 10K here and 10K there will give different times.
We added Beachy Head this year as apart from Wokingham, more people run Beachy Head than any other race. O2O is very local and despite it being made a Club Champsionship race for the last 2 years has not gained too much in popularity.
But we will discuss at the next meeting. As I would like to actually aggree the list before the new year.
Totally agree about Bramley!!
club championship
I do think something needs to be done to give the championship some credence, but just posting times from any race takes away the opportunity to physically race your club mates.
I agree the races selected need a harder look at.
Maybe having two races of each distance with one counting would give members a choice of when and where to run, but still the chance to race against at least some other club mates.
Not sure about details and scoring, something to be looked at.